*brain goes 'splody*
Sep. 22nd, 2006 10:42 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
candylandI'm in my Religions of Asia class. We're discussing Buddhism.
One of the central tennants of Mahayana Buddhism is that there is no soul, and thus ultimate goal is to achieve the Supreme Enlightenment and thus nirvana, escape samsara (the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), and basically cease to exist. Well, we just had a huge discussion about rebirth without a soul (the 5 Skandhas are gathered and basically tossed into the next body--so basically, it looks like a soul, acts like a soul, but is not a soul).
Another central tennant is that nothing is permanent. Nothing at all.
...well, someone in class just brought up the point that if nothing is permanent, then theoretically one can't be completely freed from samsara and achieve nirvana/non-existence because of that lack of permanency. His point is that even if you achieve enlightenment, sooner or later you'd have to be reborn because you couldn't cease to exist permanently.
There was debate, and a lot of talk concerning the question of existence in the first place. And lo, my head went KABOOM...and then we somehow wound up talking about The Matrix and the various Buddhist references in there and how it suddenly turns Christian at the end...
And she just said that samsara IS nirvana.
...
...
...my head hurts.
One of the central tennants of Mahayana Buddhism is that there is no soul, and thus ultimate goal is to achieve the Supreme Enlightenment and thus nirvana, escape samsara (the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), and basically cease to exist. Well, we just had a huge discussion about rebirth without a soul (the 5 Skandhas are gathered and basically tossed into the next body--so basically, it looks like a soul, acts like a soul, but is not a soul).
Another central tennant is that nothing is permanent. Nothing at all.
...well, someone in class just brought up the point that if nothing is permanent, then theoretically one can't be completely freed from samsara and achieve nirvana/non-existence because of that lack of permanency. His point is that even if you achieve enlightenment, sooner or later you'd have to be reborn because you couldn't cease to exist permanently.
There was debate, and a lot of talk concerning the question of existence in the first place. And lo, my head went KABOOM...and then we somehow wound up talking about The Matrix and the various Buddhist references in there and how it suddenly turns Christian at the end...
And she just said that samsara IS nirvana.
...
...
...my head hurts.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-22 05:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-24 09:03 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-24 07:15 pm (UTC)...And then I decided to actually look stuff up about being a Buddhist monk cause he confused me with all his "child bearing" stuff. Although technically he is a priest, but still.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-25 03:32 pm (UTC)*raises hand*
Date: 2006-09-22 06:36 pm (UTC)Nirvana is THE goal for Buddhists. That's why they go through Samsara; the constant cause and effect (life-death-rebirth-death-etc.) because they haven't achieved Enlightenment (meaning, they have not abandoned their selfish "I am important" state of mind). Nothing about the human body that we know is permanent and even though one has reached Enlightenment, that doesn't mean Nirvana. Nirvana and Enlightenment aren't interchanged.
It's not that you HAVE TO be reborn because nothing is permanent, but you have the ability to be reborn; think of it as an opportunity. Once you reach Enlightenment, you have the ability to reach Nirvana, but you could change our mind and say "Nevermind! I need to do other stuff", enter Samsara again and you can go back on earth, in a body, and help others reach Enlightenment so you can all go up to Nirvana together. Nirvana... I wouldn't say it's a "permanent" existence, but it is the "truest" existence for Mahayanas because that's where their Buddha is (and I think this division, unlike the others, make Buddha almost a god-like figure?).
As for your teacher's last statement... I have no clue what she's talking about! Maybe she meant that if you reached Nirvana, that meant you previously reached Enlightenment and therefore are aware of the process of Samsara....? That was going on a limb.
I hoped I helped, though I have a feeling I just confused you more. Sorry. ^__^;; I'm a raised-Catholic, so I make no claims that what I said is true. It's what I got from my teacher. [/disclaimer]
Re: *raises hand*
Date: 2006-09-24 09:06 am (UTC)This...just made my brain hurt more than average ^^;;
Thanks!
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-22 07:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-24 09:07 am (UTC)Because I have to.
Date: 2006-09-22 08:15 pm (UTC)"What? Don't you mean free your mind?"
"No. Free your mime. He's suffocating in his invisible box over there."
Re: Because I have to.
Date: 2006-09-24 09:02 am (UTC)...you are strange =)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-22 09:26 pm (UTC)But yes. It can be very confusing.
I think I can kind of see where the samsara being nirvana thing comes from, if only ideologically. Basically, one has to go through samsara, many hundreds of times normally, to achieve Nirvana. And Nirvana can only be achieved by all those cycles of samsara. So, in theory, the process of samsara is Nirvana because it is a necessary componant of it and without it, one would never fully understand Nirvana? I don't know. That was a stretch.
As for permancy, I always understood it sort of like the ocean. The ocean is always there and it always looks basically the same, but it is never actually the same. One spot doesn't have the same water for more than a split second. The water's always flowing. So is permancy. You aren't the same person you were two seconds ago. Something inside you changed and thus you became a new entity, although you look the same physically. I don't know; that's how I understood it.
Good luck in the class! It sounds fun. :D
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-24 09:09 am (UTC)So I'll just take things as they come. I love the class, and I love what I'm learning in there. It's all so fascinating!
Thanks for the input--I like that analogy of the ocean! *makes note of it*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-22 10:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-24 08:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-23 12:11 am (UTC)D8 I shall one day whip out my horrible notes and
stranglehit you with it!It's likely it'll kill you...(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-24 08:59 am (UTC)*hides for fear you will hurt me*
(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-25 10:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-25 03:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-09-26 10:04 am (UTC)Group headache!
Hee! I can see it now - group headaches become the new group hugs!